Curse

JerkyWorks · Jun 06, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Pankrationist

Description
A Gladiator dealing in only hand-to-hand combat able to deal fair damage very quickly. Primarily this CC is for evading or defending against physical damage. Heres a back story of the CC: Pankration

Pros
-very fast attack rate
-good dodgeing/defensive skills

Cons
-almost no self healing
-low armor
-lacking defense against elemental attacks

Look

-Build-resembling that of the Ranger

-Armor-very lacking: helmet, sandals, bracer, loin cloth(or something resembling the gladiator armor of warrior), and shoulder pad things

Stats

Armor: very light
Energy: medium
Health: high
Weapon: cestus(5-15)
Gods: Balthazr (duh)

Attributes

(Primary)Evasion- For every three points in this field you get an extra 2% chance to evade arrows and melee attacks. Skills dealing with evasion and defense improve with each point.

Cestus Mastery- Damage with the use of cestus is increased and skills dealing with attacking using cestus in combat.

Grappling- Improves skills dealing with grapples and throws.

Power of the Gods- Improves skills dealing with use of the power and skill of the gods.

Skills

Primary: since it's being disputed i'll leave it blank
(Elite)"I'll Take You All On"
6-adrenaline
You attack 33% faster and move 50% slower. Also you gain a defense bonus and 3...9 health rengeration per foe within the area.

Cestus Mastery:
(Elite)Steel Fist
6-adrenaline
You hit target foe dealing +15...30 and causeing daze and weakness for 5...10 seconds.

Black-Eye
5-energy 10sec-recharge
Target foe is blinded for 3...7 seconds

Jab Practice
4-adrenaline
Stance. You attack 25%...40% faster but deal 10...5 less damage.

Hidden Knife
5-energy 15sec-recharge
Illegal Move. Target foe is struck for 10...35 piercing damage and begins bleeding for 5...15 seconds.

Grappling
(Elite)Submission Hold
15-energy 20sec-recharge
Joint Lock. You and opponet are immobile for 3..10 seconds. Opponet takes 15...20 damage per second that this hold takes place.

Arm Bar
5-energy 10sec-recharge
Joint Lock. You and opponet are immobile for 3...5 seconds. Opponet takes 10...15 damage per second after this lock ends foe is weakend.

Bite
5-adrenaline 10sec-recharge
Illegal Move. Target touched foe takes 15...40 damage and becomes diseased for 5...16 seconds.

Power of the Gods
(Elite)Undefined Path
16-adrenaline 60sec-recharge
Stance. You attack and run 15% faster, steal 2...8 health for each hit landed, while not attacking you gain +1...3 health regeneration this stance ends after 30 seconds. When the stance ends you are struck for 150...100 holy damage.

Grenth's Fists
5-energy 10sec-recharge
Stance. For each landed attack you steal 3...10 health from opponet.

Jonn Shadowstalker · Jun 06, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

I like the idea. I would love to see some skills, though, before I make any formal judgement...

Sounds good so far though.

lyra_song · Jun 07, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

No.

Try another primary.

Built in evasion/block through attribute points is bad.

This class would essentially FORCE all melee and ranged attackers to bring unblockable/unevadeable attacks to overcome what would be a NATURAL built in attribute.

nebojats · Jun 07, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Geez... a stunning rebuttal by lyra there. 'No, jerkyworks, no!'

Don't worry though, I don't think it's a bad thing. Say your boxer automatically blocks x% of melee and arrow attacks. Say your boxer has less armor so he ends up taking x% more damage from those very attacks. End result: absolutely no difference at all! (hey! this is kind of like another CC currently on these boards...) Hell, he could have so little armor that he ends up being worse off.

No benefit is too powerful. There's always a weakness that can set it off. The problem is finding the balance...

lyra_song · Jun 07, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by nebojats

No benefit is too powerful. There's always a weakness that can set it off. The problem is finding the balance...

I call a broken attribute when i see it.

Attribute that has built in evasion and has skills that increase evasion/blocking and defense.

No.

Theres already numerous skills that increase blocking and defenses and defensive skills like stances/shouts/spirits/enchantments can already stack.

nebojats · Jun 07, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Mind providing an actual explanation instead of the words, 'no' and 'broken?' I'm not trying to fight or be confrontational, so please don't take a rude tone. You must have reasons for rejecting the concept without a second glance. You're just not explaining your rationale and I really don't understand why you're saying what you're saying.

Specifically against the example of a CC that takes x% extra damage for having lower armor, but receives x% less damage for inherently evading. I don't really see how that's cheap or broken. The two effects negate each other of the long term.

In general, you can't imagine a weakness that could balance off the benefit? Maybe the current setup is broken, but there could be a version where it's offset too much in the other direction; say the CC inherently suffers -20 degen, for example. Isn't there some happy alternative that lies between these two extremes which doesn't give the CC an unfair (dis)advantage?

I know I'm not supposed to plug, but what's in the back of my mind while I'm typing all this is my CC, the Frakah.

Also, I'm pretty sure this CC is meant to evade just melee weapon and bow attacks, as it says in the first post. So really... there are a lot of things the evasion doesn't affect. All non-arrow projectiles and virtually every non-melee spell. It's got low armor too, which means it suffers when it does get hit.

JerkyWorks · Jun 07, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

First off thanks Nebojats for describing my idea, apparently we had the same one (sorry didn't notice). The point of this CC is to primarly to be good at fighting physical attacks so wands, staffs, and spells dealing elemental damage still do damage. And I'll try to get some skills up afterschool (woot last day).

lyra_song · Jun 07, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by nebojats

Mind providing an actual explanation instead of the words, 'no' and 'broken?' I'm not trying to fight or be confrontational, so please don't take a rude tone. You must have reasons for rejecting the concept without a second glance. You're just not explaining your rationale and I really don't understand why you're saying what you're saying.

Im rejecting it instantly because many many people have proposed CCs with built in evasion/blocking attributes as their primary on this forum before and ive played classes with built in evasion instead of armor and all of them are miserable failures by design.

I used to play this game called Ragnarok Online. In RO, my favorite class is called the Assasin Cross, Sin-X for short. The Sin-X is, obviously an assassin. Its a melee class, who has very little armor. The way a Sin-X survives is through its built in natural evasion. My Sin-X was a poison/katar Sin-X.

All i had to do to kill anything was be next to them, and they were dead. The end. My attack speed put casters in permanent stun-lock and they would never be able to cast anything. Other melee classes would have difficulty hitting me anyway since i had focused on evasion, instead of having any armor or health. Ranged attackers were useless against me.

Granted if they got a hit in, i was dead, that very rarely ever happened. It was so overpowered at that point, that the only way to die was if i got mobbed by like 10 guys or if i got hit with an unblockable insta-kill attack.

ok....so im rambling on.

To simply state it.

A passive attribute should not be able to beat an active attribute or require an active attribute to equal it.

To hit a class with built in evasion/blocking, other classes would require some sort of passive/built in accuracy increase bonus mod/insignia/inscription.

This turns into a slippery slope. You see what im getting at?

Otherwise the game turns into "I need this type of weapon and skill to be able to beat someone, since they have a built in advantage". Which takes away from player skill, and skews the game to "those who have better equipment win out in the end".

Even if the weakness is that getting hit is fatal, theres no way for another class to "turn off" your built in evasion.

Evasion/Blocking can be stopped with stance breakers and such.

But these are active things (using a skill) vs another active thing (using an anti-skill). Similar to passive thing (using an elemental weapon) vs another passive thing (wearing anti-elemental armor).

This primary is just hard too to balance and doesnt give you any unique function. Your high evasion is offset by your instagib-ability.

Voila, another assasin. Another glass cannon. Do we need another one?

[M]agna_[C]arta · Jun 07, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Assassin CopyCat!
BTW, The Gladiator sounds better than Roman Boxer.

No Offense, I would help you late, Okay!
It's really Late now in my Timeline, I'll editted it with some pointers^^.

JerkyWorks · Jun 08, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

lyra_Song thanks for finaly explaining what was wrong with my CC i guess i'll change the primary to something else but before that gonna ask what will work, either.
-maybe an armor bonus or
-attack bonus

so either of those sound good? if not please help.
oh yeah and good point about the name.

JerkyWorks · Jun 08, 2007, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Added some skills plan on making a system for the illegal moves as well as a better explanation of joint locks. but it's to late here good night.

Rydrallen · Jun 08, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Im rejecting it instantly because many many people have proposed CCs with built in evasion/blocking attributes as their primary on this forum before and ive played classes with built in evasion instead of armor and all of them are miserable failures by design.

That's really an irrational argument. Evasions and armors are essentially similar things handled differently. Countering an evasive character requires an accurate character. Similarly, countering a tough character requires a character with armor penetrating capabilities. The only difference is that the tough character will receive consistent small packages of damage, while the evasive character will receive inconsistent large packages of damage.

Quote:

All i had to do to kill anything was be next to them, and they were dead. The end. My attack speed put casters in permanent stun-lock and they would never be able to cast anything. Other melee classes would have difficulty hitting me anyway since i had focused on evasion, instead of having any armor or health. Ranged attackers were useless against me.

I do not know what you are talking about. Snipers in Ragnarok Online rarely miss their attacks on assassins since the primary attribute of a sniper increases accuracy. The maximum achievable accuracy rate of a sniper far surpasses the maximum achievable evasion rate of an assassin. That's on top of the many items and cards that increases accuracy of a character. So no, assassins are not invincible just because they are evasive.

Quote:

Granted if they got a hit in, i was dead, that very rarely ever happened. It was so overpowered at that point, that the only way to die was if i got mobbed by like 10 guys or if i got hit with an unblockable insta-kill attack.

It takes exactly ONE full dexterity sniper to defeat a full agility assassin cross. The overpowering aspect of an assassin in that game does not come from its evasive nature. Rather, it's due to the incompetence of all the stealth-detecting-skills.

Quote:

To hit a class with built in evasion/blocking, other classes would require some sort of passive/built in accuracy increase bonus mod/insignia/inscription.
This turns into a slippery slope. You see what im getting at?

Thats like saying 'to do any significant damage to a class with built in superior armor, other classes would require some sort of damage increasing skills/mod/insignia.'

Quote:

Evasion/Blocking can be stopped with stance breakers and such. But these are active things (using a skill) vs another active thing (using an anti-skill). Similar to passive thing (using an elemental weapon) vs another passive thing (wearing anti-elemental armor).

Rangers in GW have built in armor against elemental damage. All the spells of an elementalist inflict elemental damage. But the elementalists never whine about how it's unfair that all their 'active' spells get countered by the 'passive' armors of the rangers. Since when does balance requires that an active thing must always be countered by another active thing. There's no such rule in GW, and there is no such rule in any other games. Perhaps you should stop using your own narrow-mindedness to dismiss ideas.

As for the OP suggestion, it's a good start. I do think, however, that it can be improved by introducing more unique skills that better define the new class.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Jun 08, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Please Rydrallen, this is not RO.
The Snipers may have a 99.9% of Success Rate of Shooting Enemies.
But their ain't no job in GW with that kind of Success Rate.

An Lyra this class has only 10% Chance of Evasion(Maximum).
And Evasion has been Removed from the Game.

lyra_song · Jun 08, 2007, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

That's really an irrational argument. Evasions and armors are essentially similar things handled differently. Countering an evasive character requires an accurate character. Similarly, countering a tough character requires a character with armor penetrating capabilities. The only difference is that the tough character will receive consistent small packages of damage, while the evasive character will receive inconsistent large packages of damage.

Lets talk strictly without using skills.

In guild wars, you can DPS a character to death. Regardless of armor. Might take a long time, but you can DPS them to death.

However if a character keeps avoiding damage (through natural evasion or blocking), the natural health regen will heal them after a certain point of damage avoidance until they take damage again. So in fact the character with built in evasion has a chance to NOT die through natural DPS.

Notice that difference?

If you can stand there and avoid damage simply by doing nothing, thats broke and overpowered. And if you scale the percentages to allow damage by having such a low evasion/blocking in the first place, then you gimp the class altogether.

Good point with the sniper though. A great example of a broken class. Personally i hated having to carry 2000000 bajillion arrows...^^ Bunny ears are cute though....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Thats like saying 'to do any significant damage to a class with built in superior armor, other classes would require some sort of damage increasing skills/mod/insignia.'

Im talking about actually HITTING the target. Damage is irrelevant at the point of discussion if you cant even hit your target.

Can you hit a class with higher armor? Yes. Hell you can DPS a warrior with a wand. Their armor is not resistant to elemental damage.

Quote:

Rangers in GW have built in armor against elemental damage. All the spells of an elementalist inflict elemental damage. But the elementalists never whine about how it's unfair that all their 'active' spells get countered by the 'passive' armors of the rangers. Since when does balance requires that an active thing must always be countered by another active thing. There's no such rule in GW, and there is no such rule in any other games. Perhaps you should stop using your own narrow-mindedness to dismiss ideas.

Big difference between resistance and negation. Again. An elementalist can wand a Ranger to death. Doesnt matter if their armor is resistant or not.

Quote:

As for the OP suggestion, it's a good start. I do think, however, that it can be improved by introducing more unique skills that better define the new class.

You wanna know what i think is a proper way to do this:

Combat Evasion (Primary)
For every point in this attribute, you have a 1% chance of blocking attacks whenever you are using an attack skill. Whenever you successfully block an attack through Combat Evasion, you gain 1 point of energy for every 2 points in this attribute.

Now your class has energy management, and built in evasion through a stipulation and you can bump the armor level up to 70.

Now it synergizes with all martial classes, and fits the personality more of a offensive melee class.

-=-=-==-=-=-==-=--==-=--

Dont think im being an ass.

I love reading C&Cs. But ive seen the whole built in evasion/blocking as a primary and nobody ever handles it in a balanced way.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Jun 08, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Oohh Great Idea Lyra^^!

Rydrallen · Jun 08, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Lets talk strictly without using skills.

In guild wars, you can DPS a character to death. Regardless of armor. Might take a long time, but you can DPS them to death.

You can dps them to death if they are combat dummies. It will never be practical to wand a high armored warrior to death.

Yes, you could still do damage to a high armored warrior. But the damage would be so insignificant that it will never be practical. And in GW all it takes is one healing signet to negate god knows how many wandings.

Armors and evasions are two similar defensive mechanisms. The only difference is that a high armored character will receive small packages of damage consistently. (20... 20... 20...) While the evasive character will receive large packages of damage inconsistently. (evaded... evaded... 60!)

It's highly narrow-minded to claim that it's impossible to balance a game just because a class uses a different defensive mechasnism.

Quote:

However if a character keeps avoiding damage (through natural evasion or blocking), the natural health regen will heal them after a certain point of damage avoidance until they take damage again. So in fact the character with built in evasion has a chance to NOT die through natural DPS.

That's like saying a character with 99% armor resistance and natural regeneration will virtually be invincible. Any defensive mechanism which is brought to extreme levels would become overpowering. An overpowering mechanism becomes overpowering if its parameters are set to be extreme. Not because that specific mechanism is inherently overpowering. Similarly, if a character can dodge attacks 99% of the time, then he is overpowering. If the parameter is set to 50%, however, then it becomes reasonable. Simple as that.

Quote:

Big difference between resistance and negation. Again. An elementalist can wand a Ranger to death. Doesnt matter if their armor is resistant or not.

Why don't you try that and see if it's practical in combat. You can wand the ranger for 5 minutes and see his health get regenerated back within seconds using Troll Ungent. That's on top of the fact that rangers are not combat dummies. They will strike back, and hard. I doubt you will have the 5 minutes to begin with.

Quote:

Combat Evasion (Primary)
For every point in this attribute, you have a 1% chance of blocking attacks whenever you are using an attack skill. Whenever you successfully block an attack through Combat Evasion, you gain 1 point of energy for every 2 points in this attribute.

It would work if attacking skills have longer activation times than 'instantaneous'.

The Herbalizer · Jun 08, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

no no no

/not signed

nebojats · Jun 08, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Agreed with Rydrallen 100%!

It's really simple in my mind: damage avoidance and damage negation are different mechanisms that achieve the same effect. Someone that avoids x% of attacks is just the same as someone who negates x% of damage from attacks. Both result in identical health loss over the long run and both result in identical chance of death.

Sure, the avoider has a slightly better chance of surviving DPS because his health might regenerate just enough while he's evading to save his ass(although over the long term, he takes just as much damage). It's an advantage, just like the ranger has a better chance of surviving elemental damage.

But the avoider aso has drawbacks. His health drops less consistently, but more dramatically. I know from being a monk that healing someone whose health is jumping all over the place is a real pain in the ass. If my allies are getting hurt, I like it to be a consistent health loss. It's easy to predict and helps me manage my energy and spell effects most effectively.

So yeah... there are benefits and drawbacks to inherently evading. I'm sure there are more examples.

I understand that you had a bad experience with another game, lyra. And I definitely understand if you've seen too many horrible CCs. But that doesn't mean the mechanic is inherently flawed. Anyway those are my last two cents on this topic.

lyra_song · Jun 08, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

You can dps them to death if they are combat dummies. It will never be practical to wand a high armored warrior to death.

Hence why i said strictly speaking without using skills. Just your character's passive attributes:

Health, energy, AL, natural run speed, natural attack speed, natural weapon damage.

Quote:

Yes, you could still do damage to a high armored warrior. But the damage would be so insignificant that it will never be practical. And in GW all it takes is one healing signet to negate god knows how many wandings.

I guess you've never solo farmed UW with a warrior using a wand to kill Aatxes (to prevent the riposte from kicking in)?

And whats healing signet gotta do with anything?

The whole point is to compare what would become a passive attribute, Built in Evasion/Blocking vs existing passive attributes.

Quote:

Armors and evasions are two similar defensive mechanisms. The only difference is that a high armored character will receive small packages of damage consistently. (20... 20... 20...) While the evasive character will receive large packages of damage inconsistently. (evaded... evaded... 60!)

And in those times of evasion, the natural health regen can kick in. Which is not applicable to the high armored character. Hes gonna die eventually.

Quote:

It's highly narrow-minded to claim that it's impossible to balance a game just because a class uses a different defensive mechasnism.

I didnt say impossible. I said it would be too hard.

Quote:

That's like saying a character with 99% armor resistance and natural regeneration will virtually be invincible. Any defensive mechanism which is brought to extreme levels would become overpowering. An overpowering mechanism becomes overpowering if its parameters are set to be extreme. Not because that specific mechanism is inherently overpowering. Similarly, if a character can dodge attacks 99% of the time, then he is overpowering. If the parameter is set to 50%, however, then it becomes reasonable. Simple as that.

All characters regain health after not taking damage for a certain amount of time. This is a passive attribute. All characters take damage if they get hit. This is a passive attribute.

Evasion/Blocking, wether through a skill or kiting is not a passive attribute, this is an active choice.

Do you know why Warriors hate Aegis? Because it cuts their DPS in half. 50% is already overpowered.

Quote:

Why don't you try that and see if it's practical in combat. You can wand the ranger for 5 minutes and see his health get regenerated back within seconds using Troll Ungent. That's on top of the fact that rangers are not combat dummies. They will strike back, and hard. I doubt you will have the 5 minutes to begin with.

Again. I said specifically this is about natural character attributes. No skills are in involved.

Quote:

It would work if attacking skills have longer activation times than 'instantaneous'.

THe OP has not stated how fast his class attacks, nor activation times on some skills.

Im not accepting any built in evasion/blocking that is passive. Look at Soul Reaping. Its a passive attribute and very controversial with the nerfing...

Rydrallen · Jun 08, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

And in those times of evasion, the natural health regen can kick in. Which is not applicable to the high armored character. Hes gonna die eventually... All characters regain health after not taking damage for a certain amount of time. This is a passive attribute. All characters take damage if they get hit. This is a passive attribute.

I guess some people just have too thick a skull to comprehend the fact that whether an ability is overpowered depends solely on its parameters. For GW style natural regeneration to achieve any substantial effect, the defending character has to have a substantial period of time of not being hit. And that is only possible if you set the evasive rate to extreme levels (think 90%). If the evasion rate is capped at, say, 50%, then that character will get hit before the natural regeneration achieve anything.

Your argument of any evasive character evading ALL assaults infinitely to the point where natural regeneration can make a substantial difference is fundamentally flawed.

That is on top of the ridiculous assumption that the evasive character will not participate in any combat, since the moment he initiates an attack, the regeneration will cease instantly.